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DUMISO DABENGWA INTERVIEW WITH LANCE GUMA - SW Radio Africa journalist Lance Guma speaks to former Home Affairs Minister, and now interim leader of the recently revived ZAPU party, Dumiso Dabengwa. Why did he decide to leave ZANU PF and support Simba Makoni’s bid for the presidency last year?

Lance also finds out why Dabengwa and other ZAPU members have moved out of the unity accord, signed in 1987 with ZANU PF. Dabengwa now criticizes Mugabe for using violence against his opponents, but there are accusations that he sat through torture sessions of MDC activists himself, at the CIO headquarters in Bulawayo’s Magnet House

Guma: Hello Zimbabwe and welcome to Behind the Headlines. My guest this week is former Home Affairs Minister and now interim leader of the recently re-formed ZAPU, Dumiso Dabengwa. Mr. Dabengwa thank you for joining us.

Now last year you shocked the political establishment by quitting Zanu PF and throwing your weight behind Presidential aspirant Simba Makoni. Let’s start there. Why did you leave Zanu PF?

Dabengwa: I did because I thought it was time for us to change as leadership and I was convinced that we would not be able to win the election with the leadership that we had..eh because in the eyes of the people that leadership had aged and they thought it was time for change of the leadership in the party so that we could get people with new ideas coming in. And when this did not happen, and it was the feeling of quite a number of people not just myself but the feeling of the majority of the people in Zanu PF. But when it didn’t happen then I thought ah ah I would not be part of the defeat of the party.

Guma: Does Zanu PF have a system were for example grievances can be addressed and if so did you ever try to work out your differences with the party before leaving?

Dabengwa: I did, I did. We had a number of meetings at Politburo. We had a number of meetings at Provincial levels, where all these things were aired by the people and we took them in turn up to the Central Committee and up to the Politburo meetings. But those views were shot down and they were subdued.

Guma: Your decision to back Presidential aspirant Simba Makoni surprised a lot of people. What were your reasons for putting your weight behind Mr. Makoni?

Dabengwa: The reasons, first I must say that the idea of having an alternative leader coming up in ZAPU was an idea that came from myself and we discussed with friends and colleagues in Zanu PF and we had agreed that we have an alternative leader and Makoni’s name was then suggested and the basis of the idea that I had myself come up with I certainly backed him and we did it as a rescue operation. As I did say even in the election campaign it’s not about Makoni but about the rescue operation. We need to rescue this thing. Zanu could easily have been defeated absolutely in the election and we would have come with a situation like in Zambia where because the leadership is no longer performing you get people who are not necessarily capable to take over and run the country coming in and I said we need to have a rescue operation to ensure there will be no winner and that we achieved.

Guma: A lot of people are saying the entry of Simba Makoni and your support of him which got him a lot of support in Matabeleland created the (presidential) run-off and that Zimbabwe is worse off because of that decision. Would you agree with that argument?

Dabengwa: We created, we certainly created a situation, an environment as we said. An environment were the people of Zimbabwe would say and were people clearly expressed that view, we do not anymore trust Zanu PF to be able to rule on its own, neither do we trust the opposition to take over and run the country and therefore from here where do we go? The people of Zimbabwe would sit down and they would be able to come out with a formula and we would have expected they would be broader consultations in order to resolve that situation, either than the one that was prescribed were the same people that have been negotiating over the years between Zanu PF and the MDC had been doing so and they were the same people that are being brought in to negotiate this important issue which meant a completely different environment from the one they were negotiating and we thought therefore they would be representatives from the civic society, they would be representatives from the war veterans who fought the war and other stakeholders would have been included. It should have been a broader consultation.

Guma: You backed Simba Makoni in the Presidential race but it seems now you have withdrawn that support and are focusing on your own political project. Were you disappointed by Makoni’s performance and management of the Mavambo Movement as some are suggesting?

Dabengwa: No, I don’t really want to go into that. But I think we...The idea was in the first place to achieve what we managed to achieve, creating that environment and it was not a party. Kusile/Mavambo was not a party. And the idea was to carry out that rescue operation. After the rescue operation had succeeded as far as we were concerned we then asked the people, the people that supported Simba Makoni particularly, what do we do from here? And they talked about the need to convert Kusile/Mavambo into a political party and we said go and discuss it with the people down at the grassroots and lets hear what the people say. And we left it with the people to then take it up and see what the people decide. Then when the people decided they wanted to form a political party, we threw it back here in Matabeleland, threw it back to them and said what political party and how do you want it to be done?

Guma: In December last year you were appointed appointed ZAPU's chairman at a convention held at the Macdonald Hall in Mzilikazi. Now more specifically why have you and other members of ZAPU decided to withdraw from the unity accord (with Zanu PF).

Dabengwa: Precisely the people then came out with the view that there was no need to form a party. They thought what was most important, because Zanu PF had failed them they thought what was most important was that ZAPU should be brought back. ZAPU should come up and be able to put through those ideas that it had in 1980 which had never been implemented because they got subdued in Zanu PF. It was the people that decided that, I did not participate in their preliminary discussions. We gave them, we told them it was necessary to consult the leadership, the ZAPU leadership that was involved in the unity accord hence their invitation to Msika to come and explain to them what should be done after they thought about those ideas. And this is why Msika had been invited to address that meeting. It’s the people it was not me. And we were following the procedures that were necessary because Msika had actually said to them, look this decision would only be done after the ZAPU congress had met, so this is why they went on to then prepare for the convening of a ZAPU congress. And this is what is being done and that’s the mandate that this interim executive in which I was appointed chairman to do. I am appointed only up to congress to be able to prepare and to convene congress and that mandate ends there, once congress has been called the people will then decide what next to do.

Guma: Is it true the power sharing deal between the MDC and ZANU-PF was threatening to make ZAPU members irrelevant because it was sidelining them from important positions?

Dabengwa: The people said we have suffered a lot of disadvantages since we went into that unity accord with ZANU. A lot of ideas that we had when we fought for the independence of this country have not been realized. We have said them all over again at all conferences that have been held under the banner of ZANU-PF and none of them are being implemented at all. And the last thing to break the camel’s neck has been these negotiations that have been taking place, look at it again we are not represented Chinamasa was never ZAPU, Goche we don’t know him he has not been ZAPU, and our voice is not there and important issues of the country are being discussed and we have no voice at all, as if we never existed. The best thing is let’s go back to ZAPU so we can be able to make our voices be heard in issues pertaining to this country.

Guma: In December last year you described Robert Mugabe as an unrepentant leader who believes in violence to maintain his hold on power. Now obviously at one time you were Home Affairs Minister and some of the violence used by ZANU-PF could not have escaped your attention. Some are wondering did you just turn a blind eye to that?

Dabengwa: Unfortunately I would not say that statement could be attributed to me. I don’t remember saying that about Mugabe at all. However, as to the aspects pertaining to my having been an onlooker or participated in the violence that took place during the time I was Minister of Home Affairs I think I did everything possible to ensure at least that there was peace in the country and there was very little violence during my time in office.

Guma: Just recently a group of exiled MDC activists in South Africa accused you of sitting through torture sessions at the CIO Bulawayo headquarters at Magnet House what’s your response to that?

Dabengwa: At sitting?

Guma: Yes they said you sat through the torture sessions at Magnet House, you watched them being tortured.

Dabengwa: Me?

Guma: Yes

Dabengwa: How? Who invited me in the first place? Do you think members of the CIO would ever invite me to come into their operations? They never did so when I was Minister of Home Affairs, how would they do it now?

Guma: Khumbulani Sibanda a former youth member of the MDC in Bulawayo says the CIO raided them some time ago and they were taken to Magnet House and when they saw you entering the room they thought maybe as Minister you are going to intervene they claim you told them to cooperate or else they would die, is that a false accusation?

Dabengwa: Absolutely, I don’t think I’ve been to Magnet House for over a year now. I mean setting foot at Magnet House? I don’t think I have done it for over a year.

Guma: One more accusation that has been thrown your way Mr. Dabengwa. The MDC is saying in 2001 you led a group of ZANU PF youths to the MDC offices in Herbert Chitepo in Bulawayo and the result was an arson attack on the offices. Do you have any comment on that one?

Dabengwa: Me leading them to where?

Guma: To the MDC offices in Herbert Chitepo in Bulawayo.

Dabengwa: I don’t even, up to this date. I don’t even know exactly where the MDC offices are? I know there are somewhere in Herbert Chitepo, I have never been there. I can’t lead somebody to a place where I don’t myself know where it is.

Guma: The issue of ZAPU properties brews on the horizon Mr. Dabengwa. Several reports are already talking about ZAPU wanting back for example Magnet House, the headquarters of the CIO in Bulawayo. Is this a route that you are pursuing as a party?

Dabengwa: These were issues that were raised during the convention that we had at the Macdonald Hall last December. And we did agree the issue will just be referred to congress and it is congress that will have the mandate to make decisions over those issues.

Guma: ZANU PF has already begun trying to take what they claim are their cars. We understand ZANU PF Bulawayo province wrestled a vehicle from former Secretary for Security Andrew Ndlovu, who is now a senior member in your party. And we also understand they were fierce classes between ZANU PF and ZAPU members with both parties claiming ownership of the vehicles and I'm sure this is spreading to other areas. So even if maybe you have not made a decision on this it looks like ZANU PF is already trying to take vehicles from your officials.

Dabengwa: We decided not to make vehicles an issue and there has never been any struggle in the taking away of vehicles they did. The first one they took from the former chairman of the party, Mr. Tshawe, he handed them the keys and said he did not want any noise and he did not want unnecessary scuffles. The second vehicle they came, the guy was in a restaurant and they towed it away. There was no scuffle, so there was never a fight.

Guma: Do you anticipate a fight with ZANU PF when you do come to a point when you want your property as ZAPU?

Dabengwa: We don’t. We think these are issues that are going to be discussed at congress and congress will be able to direct exactly how they should be handled.

Guma: The Zimbabwe Standard reported 2 weeks ago how ZAPU members are already being victimised. The report says ruling party militias have launched a retribution war targeting your supporters and 3 officials were reportedly abducted in Mashonaland West. How serious a problem is this for you Mr. Dabengwa.?

Dabengwa: Well, I don’t know, we got a report from our people in Mashonaland West and they told us what had happened but that they had been released, not long after that and we take it as part of the harassment that we probably expect will continue until such a time that they realise that we are really a party and that congress as given the mandate that the party should run as ZAPU.

Guma: There are some conspiracy theorists who are already suggesting that ZAPU is being used to dilute the support of the MDC in Matabeleland and the idea they say is to elevate Emerson Mnangagwa as President while you become his Deputy. Any reaction to that theory?

Dabengwa: I don’t know. I don’t know what deputy, I would be of Mnangagwa, certainly no, not in my life. And the second aspect of it is that ZAPU has a right. We went into a unity arrangement. That unity accord is not working. We have a right to pull out of that unity accord. Whether in the process it has implications for other existing parties or organisations is immaterial to us. What is important is that we have a right to choose to pull out of that unity accord. And this is what the people have decided to do. The ZAPU members have decided to do. To pull out of that unity accord. It’s taken them a long time but they have finally decided to do so.

Guma: Do you think ZAPU’s biggest disadvantage is the fact that some perceive you as a party built on tribal lines and that your support will be mainly coming from Matabeleland. Is that a major disadvantage for you?

Dabengwa: I don’t think it’s a disadvantage; firstly it’s not true to say to say the membership will be coming mainly from Matabeleland. You don’t know the extent of the enthusiasm that is there in other provinces in Mashonaland, in Manicaland, in Masvingo right through the country. We probably…the people there have received this with more enthusiasm than the people in Matabeleland and they have gone a long way to form ZAPU structures in those provinces.

Guma: Is there any chance of Zimbabweans seeing Dumiso Dabengwa in an alliance with the MDC or you actually joining the MDC as some politicians like Pearson Mbalekwa have done after leaving ZANU PF?

Dabengwa: No, I am directed by the people. The people have said I should lead this interim committee up to congress. Congress will decide on the next step and any alliances that are done can only be decided by the people, by congress. Dabengwa is no factor at all in coming up with a decision on those issues.

Guma: My final question. How do you see the Zimbabwean question being resolved? Is it going to be fresh elections, a unity government, a transitional authority, I mean how do you see it?

Dabengwa: My own personal view is a transitional government. It could be formed anytime now if the current negotiations succeeded next week. That transitional government could be formed. The permanent solution would be elections immediately at the end of that transitional arrangement.

Guma: That was former Home Affairs Minister and now interim leader of the re-formed ZAPU Mr. Dumiso Dabengwa. Mr. Dabengwa, thank you for joining us on Behind the Headlines.

Dabengwa: You welcome.

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